Suggestions for SBH 4.4

[Jerekin]

Hello,
I'm from Germany and my English is bad (sorry). But i want to give my feedback for a better game.

1. Poison and tailslap suck. They should have a chance of 2 in 6. My last warband contained Ghouls and Spiders. They could never profit from this special rule.

2. In our last games we made the expierience that ranged combat is very weak. You had no time to shoot because the enemy was to near or the penalty on far distances was to high.
The penalty on double distance should be -1 and on tripple -2 .

3. I don't understand the Sorcerer. He kills his own people just for better Quality? You can not profit by this kind of magic because The sorcerer has in many cases enough Quality and what does Quality helps when you have low Combat?

4. The campaign rules are not clear. For example, who gets the victory points?

5. I'm not a powergamer but in treasure Hunt and Hunt for the magical object its not fair that the Attacker can place all the markers. in amany cases the Defender has no chance.

6. You get a penalty when you move through broken(?) Terrain but you can climb without penalty in the most cases? You should always climb with the penalty, not just with just one sucess in the test.

7. The anti paladin costs 56 points in the sheet but with the builder just 52.


I hope i remebered all things correctly. Maybe I will write later more
I'm looking forward to your answer and i hope you didn't missunderstand my text or my rude words (bad English). I really love your game!
Thanks and Greetings
Jerekin

[Jerekin]

Ahh, I forgot something.
All models should roll on the Injury table not just the winner.
In our first campaign the looser lost in the first game all his heroes. In the following games he was the eternal Underdog because.

[theswlion]

Having played quite a few games, I think the core system works very well. It's a nice fast paced light skirmish game.

I have a few suggestions for the next edition:

1) Incorporate the Free Hack rulings and FAQ examples and clarifications into the main rules.

2) I would seriously consider moving all powers to the main book and leave SGD, SWW, and SDG as "true" additons to the rules, adding more flavor and depth to the games.

3) Rework SDG. I don't think a Mordheim/Necromunda style campaign system works for SBH. Once I get a balanced list together for figures, I don't need a campaign system that tweaks the stats wrecking the balance in the lists. I like the special powers and equipment earned, because that adds some great flavor, but I wouldn't adjust Q or C during the campaign. Also, some of the scenarios aren't balanced for this system. Anything that splits forces (because Leader is so important to activations) should be dropped. I really like the set up in the front with the terrain types and rolling for setup, so I would keep that.

4) This will be controversial...
Get rid of the rosters in the books, and move more to a "template" style to give examples of figure stats. I think too many players treat this game like an "out of the box" game like GW or Privateer Press would create. I think that's why we see a lot of posts with "Figure X stinks...," or "Figure Y is too expensive for what he does..." Those are complaints you should hear on GW and PP boards.

SBH should encourage players to build there own stats for the figures they will play with (complete balanced lists, not just the figures they want to play, the emphasis is on balanced). I spent a lot of time building a roster for D&D figures (the majority of them), where I based a lot of the figures on the rosters in the book. Now I'm going to scrap that roster and begin again, after I have defined skills for all of the core (3.0/3.5) character classes and races (I'll handle Monsters later). Also, I have a roster or LotR figures that I'm going to scrap, too, because I think that universe will work better with a hybrid of SBH and the Spear and Shield book. I think templates for an Elf Archer, Dwarf Figter, Human Rogue, etc. would have been a bigger help.

I think templates will be a springboard for players to build their own stats for figures they will pick to use with SBH (players could build the rosters together - kind of like building characters for an RPG - keeping the power gamer mentality shelved). I think Rich kind of does this in FL. I'm hoping templates are what we get for Power Legion, because I will balance out the super hero figures for the games I will play in (ex. balancing Captain America so he can't beat the Hulk, but can tear through some Hand Ninjas).

[covultures]

as discussed on the boards
1) modify free disengage
2) modify undead morale

more.....
3) make poison better
4) clarify some aspects of group orders
5) less than zero combat ruling
6) possibly add a "sub-commander" SR
7) clarify ambush rules
8) include optional advanced leader rules from SDS as a side bar.

[richjones]

Add heavy armour (plate) as it is in Hearts and Minds for ceramic armour - the armour adds 1 to ANY losing combat roll for resolution - this way it helps to stop you being killed. Way it is now only helps in cases where you aren't doubled or tripled - doesn't help when you are !

We have been using this with samurai for a while now and it works well.

[pfaghe]

SDS and FL games have some very nice additions very useful (if not mandatory) for SBH also

I don't think that SBH need for simpler rules than SDS or FL

Is very important that all the rules have the basic core rules (=SBH) very similar (a simple example just now is the use of Woods terrain)

"I would seriously consider moving all powers to the main book and leave SGD, SWW, and SDG as "true" additons to the rules, adding more flavor and depth to the games"

Agree, I think that actually SBH need to have all the Special Rules in the core book

thanks

[mabon5127]

Jul 19, 2010 10:42:30 GMT 1 pfaghe said:

SDS and FL games have some very nice additions very useful (if not mandatory) for SBH also

I don't think that SBH need for simpler rules than SDS or FL

Is very important that all the rules have the basic core rules (=SBH) very similar (a simple example just now is the use of Woods terrain)

"I would seriously consider moving all powers to the main book and leave SGD, SWW, and SDG as "true" additons to the rules, adding more flavor and depth to the games"

Agree, I think that actually SBH need to have all the Special Rules in the core book

thanks

I agree do away with the little differences in the various rule systems that deal with core rules vs setting stuff. One example is the splitting of leader actions in FL but not in SoBH.

Morgan

[phreedh]

Clarification on group moves would be nice. As it's written now, it's not entirely clear whether the leader activates and executes all his actions and THEN the group is activated and moved OR if the leader is activated and the group activates and moves and THEN the leader does his remaining actions OR if the leader activates, the group activates and moves and then the leader does sweet fuck all. =)

Also - adding all the extra rules to the core book would ofcourse be nice but then the value of these expansions (they are, after all, expansions) would be diminished.

I'd love to see a big ass volume including all the generic setting-less expansions; SDG, SGD and SWW.

[covultures]

i have to disagree about puting all the powers in the main book. the whole idea is that each supplement will bring new powers/twists on the game. compiling an ever expanding list is a sillly idea, not to mention bad buisness - i buy the books almost exclusivly for the new SRs and the odd rules addition (e.g. fire, terraini, etc).
i do think that you should include the more advanced gaming options (from sds, FL) as "optional rules," however. while im more than willing to buy a new SOBH sup for some new gameplay, i dont really want to buy FL or SDS so i can play more advanced fantasy games. make the fantasy books a complete series.

[mikedemana]

My suggestion might be to change the Leader and group activation rules to match those in Song of Drums & Shakos. I like the feel of this better than the original SBH rules.

And I agree with the suggestion on Heavy Armor -- plus, it is simpler to say it adds +1 to a losing rule than +1 to losing rules EXCEPT if doubled or tripled. I know we played entire games where one side has Heavy Armor and it never really had an effect. It seemed every time the armored guys lost, they lost by more than 1. That may have just been a statistical fluke, though!

Good luck with the project, and count me in for a new copy! Mine is one of the old, original ones, I think...

[theswlion]

Jul 21, 2010 17:50:17 GMT 1 covultures said:

i have to disagree about puting all the powers in the main book. the whole idea is that each supplement will bring new powers/twists on the game. compiling an ever expanding list is a sillly idea, not to mention bad buisness - i buy the books almost exclusivly for the new SRs and the odd rules addition (e.g. fire, terraini, etc).

That's the Games Workshop and Privateer Press model. Keep buying books, and more books, and more books...

I look to an independent t be different and better than the "standard" games.

If the game is solid, then the player base will grow, selling more books.

[andrea sfiligoi]

I'm reading you guys and taking most of your suggestion on board. Armor and leadership will follow the H&M/SDS route. Poison and Tailslap will be enhanced to 5 or 6 on d6. Lots of clarifications and examples and photos with diagram, movement examples etc will be in.


Ranged attacks, they are weak by design, because I want to avoid all-ranged warbands (HTH is more fun) but we could add an ability that reduces range penalties.

Some "important" special rules from the supplements will go into SBH but as we plan to add new specials in every book, you will never have all of them in only one book. It just doesn't make sense unless we go with GW pricing (and even that, we wouldn't have the same graphics etc so we couldn't justify a glossy, expensive product anyway).

SBH 4.4 (maybe we should call it 5th edition) will certainly be a bigger book.

theswlion, do not assume that growing a fanbase is always a good thing. It does not equate with more sales as it seems there is a certain number that brings in "bad apples" in the basket, and I mean pirates who would not buy the rules bit steal them and post them for free on the internet or photocopy them for all their friends. We did not have piracy until we were in the high hundreds, basically we were a small happy family were everyone knew each other... but when we got into the low thousands, the family became too big for peer pressure and word-of-mouth to keep all the pirates in check.
Anyway, the "keep buying new books" is a healthy thing for any publisher at any level. The difference will be that you don't NEED those books to play. You CAN buy them ONLY IF you want the added materials. And our books are a bit cheaper :-)

Printing the books on paper is becoming more a liability than a good thing as time progresses. when a lot of players will have ereaders, we will stop being forced by the paper restraints and we could really have books of encyclopedic size (a properly indexed PDF is faster to read than a printed book). I guess the process will take 5-6 more years though so we're staying with the current paper and PDF model right now.

[andrea sfiligoi]

Jerekin,
we'll discuss book specific changes when we do a new edition of the supplements (in 2011). There is a lot I want to add and quite a bit that needs to be changed.

In 2011 we will have a supplement/variant entirely devoted to magic that will offer many options for customizing and creating spellcasters.

Why should the loser roll on injury? Losers are killed by the opponent. Those who fled the table survived, but are not injured.

[theswlion]

@andrea

You've got rules spread over four books that should be considered "core" (like special abilities). They should be all in the "core" book.

I understand the business model, it's been around forever. But, having players flip through four books to find rules during a game is not fun, and could hurt the player base.

I would split the books between core (main rules and abilities) and expansions or add-ons (dungeon rules, wilderness rules, and new terrain or setting rules, etc.) You still have multiple books to sell, and you help the players at the same time.

Also, you could jettison SDG, and fold what's good about it into SGD or SWW. Mordheim campaigns don't work in this system.

[andrea sfiligoi]

theswlion,
SDG is a very successful book and I've seen some campaign write ups which indeed showed the rules work well, maybe it's just a matter of taste.

I'll be making the books bigger and repeat the core rules in each of them so you carry around just one book or maybe two. You should understand that in many cases if you don't add some crunch to the new books, they won't sell enough copies to make them worthwhile.

And I have told many times, you can play with only the basic SBH book if you are not interested in the other stuff, so I'm stuffing some content from the supplements into it, but if I were putting all of it in a single book, the book should be much more expensive-- or simply Ganesha Games wouldn't be worth my time and I'd have to spend my time doing something else, because you know, I like to eat every day of the week, not only when a new game is out :-)