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Post by The Beer Ogre on Apr 7, 2010 9:27:23 GMT 1
As I don't want to hijack the Quality discussion thread, I though I would post a little thread for the fun of it.
A something of a min/maxing powergaming nerd type, I created these for the fantasy setting that I run my SBH tournaments in...
STEAM HULK
Pts:60 Q:4+ C:5
Special Rules: Artifical; Big; Heavy Armour; Shooter (long); Short Move
These things have proved so difficult to beat that in our typical 300pt games, playing 5 of them has been banned... players of the Steam Dwarf faction (from which they are taken) can only field a maximum of 2.
So just for fun... as a thought experiment, if you will... how would you go about creating a warband to beat 5 of these.
All the Hulks are on 50mm bases... and we'll say that you have seen the warband played before... these are the general tactics used -
1) The Steam Hulks try to remain within a Short Move of one another
2) They will try to take any high ground nearby, if their is none is available, they will assemble in an area where they have an unrestricted field of fire
3) They will seldom activate on 3D6, advancing half their number, while the others shoot, then the furthest forward shoot, while the rest advance... only the last to activate in a round will use 3D6
4) If they roll 2 activations they will try to use an aimed shot at a visible enemy... otherwise they move and shoot... or double move
5) If mutliple enemy models come within x3 move distance, all Hulks will activate using 1D6 and shoot... the last will acitvate on 3D6 and try to charge as many enemies as it can to stop the advance
We are assuming this is just a knock-down battle, without a scenario...
So what would you do?
Just a note...
When they are used in a scenario, I have to admit the tactics don't change much.
Rather than trying to complete the scenario, the Hulks set up with a field of fire containing any objective and try to shoot any enemies that try to hold/collect/complete any of the scenario conditions... they aren't very sporting...
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Post by richjones on Apr 7, 2010 11:02:25 GMT 1
Give me a sec and I'll design something that is lethal to steam driven stuff --- expanding foam magic  |
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Post by boromirandkermit on Apr 7, 2010 12:16:26 GMT 1
I won't comment on mix/maxing in games other than to say for me, it is the single most frustrating and annoying part of wargaming.
To beat these guys, you could always try scenario or objective based games, where I would assume these guys will be too slow to be effective. You mention that they set up around an objective, I find it hard to believe that they would get there before other warbands. I would send out a scout, which would draw the fire from the main group, buying them time to complete the objective.
I would continue to play my warbands for fun, but, if you wanted to play fire against fire, then you could try an accelerated rusting water against them...
Try a band of these little blokes:
Gnome with Water Belcher
Points 60 Quality 3+ Combat 4
Special Rules Coward, Greedy, Lethal, Sharpshooter, Shooter: Long, Short Move, Stealth
Lethal is of course against Artificial figures. You'll get 5 for your 300 points.
You can even make this warband thematic. They go around taking down Steam Hulks to steal parts. They have created water launchers that contain a rust accelerator to immobolise the Steam Hulks. It weighs alot and they are small gnomes, hence the short move and stealth, but their devices are extremely accurate and powerful, hence the sharpshooter and shooter long.
Use a board with lots of terrain and watch them pick apart the Steam Hulk warband piece by piece. ;D
Cheers,
Ben.
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Post by The Beer Ogre on Apr 7, 2010 13:24:50 GMT 1
I won't comment on mix/maxing in games other than to say for me, it is the single most frustrating and annoying part of wargaming. To beat these guys, you could always try scenario or objective based games, where I would assume these guys will be too slow to be effective. You mention that they set up around an objective, I find it hard to believe that they would get there before other warbands. I would send out a scout, which would draw the fire from the main group, buying them time to complete the objective. I would continue to play my warbands for fun, but, if you wanted to play fire against fire, then you could try an accelerated rusting water against them... Try a band of these little blokes: Gnome with Water Belcher
Points 60 Quality 3+ Combat 4
Special Rules Coward, Greedy, Lethal, Sharpshooter, Shooter: Long, Short Move, StealthLethal is of course against Artificial figures. You'll get 5 for your 300 points. You can even make this warband thematic. They go around taking down Steam Hulks to steal parts. They have created water launchers that contain a rust accelerator to immobolise the Steam Hulks. It weighs alot and they are small gnomes, hence the short move and stealth, but their devices are extremely accurate and powerful, hence the sharpshooter and shooter long. Use a board with lots of terrain and watch them pick apart the Steam Hulk warband piece by piece. ;D Cheers, Ben. As Rich (sort of) noted above, Lethal vs. Artificial isn't a "legal" choice as Artifical is a special rule (in the same way as you wouldn't have Lethal vs. Savage etc.)... But Lethal vs. Steam-Powered is entirely possible. The Orc faction in the Fantasy world has some models with Lethal vs. Mechanicals (also with C:4), they were marginally effective, taking down (I think) two before they were eventually destroyed. Ranged combat seems to be more effective against them as the combination of Big (effectively making them Combat 6) and Heavy Armour makes them favour hand-to-hand. Stealth is particularly good as it effectively cancels their Long range. As for scenarios and objectives, Long range if very potent, especially if they ignore Scouts and other single targets, in favour of "covering" an objective. In fairness, the Hulks used to be Slow rather than Short Move, but with Slow, they were getting to their objective more quickly than with Short Move... so the profile was changed to limit them a bit further. As for min/maxing... it is an intrinsic part of most wargames (and many RPG games. D&D 4th edition is a perfect example). If you allow players to create their own models, then the inevitable result will be some flying-death-machine with +10 weapons and immunity to all but the most specific attacks. For that reason I make my own army lists (as Andrea suggested). However, even those lists still need to have "something" that is optimised, to keep those players who like a bit of power-gaming interested. Min/Maxing isn't much of a problem when everyone is doing it... or can do it... For that reason, a limit was imposed on the number of Elite models that could be fielded at one time. Many of the other factions have similar Elite models. It's just that the Steam Hulk, seems to be the most cost-effective. Just to take things a bit further. One of the other factions... The Lightning Empire... has a similar "techno-magical" feel, but uses electricity/lightning in their "fluff" rather than steam. The Lightning Empire equivalent of the Steam Hulk is the Lightning Knight. It's much better than the Steam Hulk, but at 80pts, can't be fielded in numbers and therefore is much easier to defend against. Keep the ideas coming... it's always good to see someone elses take on an idea...  |
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Post by LilNewbie on Apr 7, 2010 16:44:41 GMT 1
I get the Steam Hulks pointing up to 57 points using the online Warband Builder.
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Post by A-Train on Apr 7, 2010 18:08:42 GMT 1
Wasn't there a dispute between the cost of Heavy Armour in the book and in the warband builder? I think that may make up for the difference.
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Post by phreedh on Apr 7, 2010 18:45:32 GMT 1
So uh... I'd field 5 steam hulks?  On a more serious note... Probably something similar, but Undead, Stealth and maybe Slow instead of Short Move. Chuck on a bump in Combat and remove the armour as the model is Stealthy... How about this: Undead Combat Monstrosity of Penultimate Doom (And Discomfort)Points 60, Quality 4+, Combat 6 Big, Coward, Greedy, Lethal (vs Hulks), Savage, Hatred (of Hulks), Slow, Stealth, Undead It could probably be tweaked for extra cheese... hence the "penultimate". =) Edit: D'oh - forgot I removed the shooter trait - sharp shooter won't do much. Exchanged for Hatred |
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Post by The Beer Ogre on Apr 7, 2010 19:25:35 GMT 1
So uh... I'd field 5 steam hulks? On a more serious note... Probably something similar, but Undead, Stealth and maybe Slow instead of Short Move. Chuck on a bump in Combat and remove the armour as the model is Stealthy... How about this: Undead Combat Monstrosity of Penultimate Doom (And Discomfort)Points 60, Quality 4+, Combat 6 Big, Coward, Greedy, Lethal (vs Hulks), Savage, Hatred (of Hulks), Slow, Stealth, Undead It could probably be tweaked for extra cheese... hence the "penultimate". =) Edit: D'oh - forgot I removed the shooter trait - sharp shooter won't do much. Exchanged for Hatred Yes... yes... let your inner-power-gamer flow... join the Dark Side! ;D If I get a chance, I'll convert my campaign army lists to PDF and post them... then you can all P.E.A.C.H. to your heart's content. |
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Post by theswlion on Apr 7, 2010 19:35:49 GMT 1
<Sniff> <Sniff>
I smell cheese in this thread... ;D
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Post by phreedh on Apr 7, 2010 22:13:56 GMT 1
<Sniff> <Sniff> I smell cheese in this thread... ;D Proper irish cheese, to boot! |
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Post by LilNewbie on Apr 7, 2010 22:51:38 GMT 1
Wasn't there a dispute between the cost of Heavy Armour in the book and in the warband builder? I think that may make up for the difference. That's right. The original cost for Heavy Armor was 5 but it has been reduced to 3. The online builder reflects this change. Good call, A-Train! |
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Post by The Beer Ogre on Apr 8, 2010 9:25:53 GMT 1
Yep... my SBH Squad Builder has the cost at 5pts... I'll have to get that updated. OK... so that means these Steam Hulks are going to be cheaper... lets change the profile a bit to this:- Steam Hulk
Pts:54 Q:4+ C:5
Special Rules: Artificial; Big; Heavy Armour; Shooter (long); Slow5 of Hulks would now cost 270pts... so I could add one of these... Steam Dwarf Operator
Pts:30 Q:4+ C:2
Special Rules: Greedy; Leader; Short MoveNot a very tough Leader and probably weakens the overall warband (unless I can shoehorn in Stealth somehow), but the Hulks will get to act a bit more often and perhaps even make a combined fire attack.  And that cheese you are looking for is proper Norn Iron Colraine Cheddar... horrible wax subsitute that it is...  |
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Post by theswlion on Apr 8, 2010 15:13:16 GMT 1
For that reason I make my own army lists (as Andrea suggested). However, even those lists still need to have "something" that is optimised, to keep those players who like a bit of power-gaming interested. In the D&D minis roster list I created (with a lot of input from LilNewbie), we have some pretty powerful figures on there, too, but they are almost all dragons and they are crazy expensive in SBH terms. We'll probably use them in scenario based games where players won't care that they lost their whole warband to a dragon or dragons, because that will be the point... |
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Post by slagathor on Jul 16, 2010 8:29:40 GMT 1
As Rich (sort of) noted above, Lethal vs. Artificial isn't a "legal" choice as Artifical is a special rule (in the same way as you wouldn't have Lethal vs. Savage etc.)... Excuse me, but why would it not be legal? The human roster has Lethal vs. Animals, Lethal vs. Undead and Lethal vs. Magic-Users, all of which are special rules. |
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Post by covultures on Jul 17, 2010 20:38:57 GMT 1
oh, its fully legal. lethal vs magic user is even an example in the rule description. in fact, you can have leathal vs. whatever (except humans, depending on your group). common uses (in lists given in books, and custom builds) are lethal vs mounted, undead, animals etc. in fact the SRs are usually part of the lethal special rule, the only other thing ive seen used is a race <cough, jacks, cough>, though you could conceivably make it against something really weird like or "lethal vs. jewelry" if you wanted.
a pack of rust monsters lead by a beastmaster magic user could be nasty.
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On a more serious note...
