A few questions after the first two games....

[Claus Paludan]

A few questions

A) LMG setup time
1. .30,MG34/42 (and others) LMG setup time of 3 actions. This seems rather high compared to ie a MG34/42 on a tripod. Running a pz grd section with two MG's in it makes the section
more or less ineffective due to the time it takes to setup. Wouldn't it be a tad bit easier to setup the LMG, flipping out the bipod and slamming a belt into and rip away compared to the deployment of a full tripod based weapon?

B) Overwatch
1. Why does the overwatch target area has to be a place where no enemies are visible? If I shoot down a soldier in the open and he ends up on the ground (ooa, shaken+prone etc) I will stop firing at him (no reason to waste ammo on a guy that might be dead), but placing
an overwatch marker on or near him seems like a good idea because his mates my try to recover him or try to move through the same area.

2) Why does overwatch go away? If no enemies show up they would still be asked to watch the overwatch area. If enemies show up more might appear at the same spot, making the overwatch still relevant. Granted, continously concentration might
be needed. A 1 action "keep overwatch" might be used instead as to make it easier to keep alert.

3) It appears that both LMG's and snipers loose a lot of benefit of being on overwatch compared to fire directly since they can't aim..?!?? But this seem to counter the idea of watching (aiming) at a specific area just waiting for targets to appear??

C) Lethality
1. Example one.
We had a LMG42 deployed and pointing down a street, gunner and assistant was battle hardened veterans from the eastern front Q3/C4). Coming along was a fine GI Joe (Q4/C2) unaware of the LMG team. The germans let rip at 2½ range scoring
a shaken + prone status on the GI. Next turn GI Joe shakes of the shaken status and rise from prone to standing. The germans let rip once more... gaining a shaken + prone once more. The following turn they finally managed to kill the poor bloke. Had he been in proper cover, prone etc that would have seemed a reasonable result, but here it seems like the LMG's didn't have enough punch. (The US players .30 didn't get to fire so we only have the german example here).

2. Example two
A german officer with a MP40 is inside a house looking out a window. Outside on the grass two GI Joes is crawling away but still within short range. The officer fires a burst at them and gains one shaken+prone and one "goes to ground". Again this seemed like a place where one would expect at least one out of action (the rolls weren't even that bad for the german).

It may just be us, but scoring an actual out of action seems fairly difficult even at point blank range and no cover involved. Most of our shootings was one-on-one, but I tried with a coordinated attack later on and was barely able to do a kill/out of action result - even with decent dicerolls.

D) Concentrated fire.
Is doesn't seem like using a LMG or the like in concentrated fire is of much use besides adding a further -1 to the opponents roll (just like adding an extra rifle would do) - since the worst modifiers are to be used the rifles +2 should be used rather than the LMG's +3??

E) Spotting rules.
As FL is an excellent base for more RPG style games, some kind of spotting/sighting rules would really add to it and make the "godlike" status of having a full view of the battlefield a little less evident and the results more predictable.


We had good fun playing two games in one evening. The first was the standard meeting encounter we often use to try out new rules with.. The second one was with an objective to reach and hold some fortified positions around a crossroad section. I will try to write up a short AAR of each game today or tomorrow and feed the link here.

We lacked a more specific WW2 feel, but am aware that this is a generic set of rules. So any hopes for a WW2 addition anytime soon? (with the Afghan stuff done on your desk Rich, there should be plenty of time for a WW2 one )

[richjones]

Hi Claus ... long time since we conversed mate

The WWII one is not far off being written up

A. With the way the crew actions work it is fine ... you'll probably have 2 fairly good Q troops on it within command range so probably down to a Q3 at most - getting a combined 4 actions should be over 50/50 which leaves a shot with the 4th action. Risking moving first bumps it up but should be OK. Originally a tripod mount took longer but with no 'carry over' of actions it proved too much effort although did model the need for them to be static. With Pnzer Grens I'd imagine you'd be looking at Q2 meaning they should do it easy!

B1/ Idea is a game mechanic to stop people firing once and using 2 actions to set up overwatch on a figure then being able to fire again when the figure activates - basically making the firer into a 'combat fiend'. However to be honest OOA and shaken are counted in our games as not being active characters LOS wise ... which means we do put them in an overwatch zone. This was the intention of the rule and an edit may have rephrased it slightly so now it is not, one for the FAQ.

B2 Overwatch does not go away for auto fire weapons unless fired or disturbed ...

B3 In overwatch you are not aiming at a specific point on the target ... it is watching a larger area etc and taking a snap shot. Aiming in FL would be taking into account the speed of the target, wind etc etc ... overwatch is looking over a larger area and reacting by instinct. Hope that makes sense.

C1 He was freakin lucky! He hit the deck as soon as the firing started and managed to get up as they changed a belt only to dive back down when it opened up again. At C4 +C3 for LMG for C7 plus dice (an aimed shot would have been good) compared to 2 plus dice he was very lucky twice! Thats the time to have the LMG shoot first and then a K98 picking off the shaken character at +2 and lethal.

C2 I think the thing is we presume it would be at least an OOA result ... where as most personal testimony tends to imply that in that sort of example it wouldn't be a dead cert (no pun intended) mind you it always seems pretty lethal in that sort of situation in our games ... maybe we aim more as the -1 to the targets C is takes their C to 1 normally which makes doubling a lot easier in a lot of cases. Also the shaken etc doesn't mean they were not grazed etc just not bad enough to put them OOA. Just checking that you are not adding the weapon bonus to the target?

D) Shoot with the LMG and add the rifles as the further -1 then you get the +3 for the LMG and can also spread it etc. I'd see it as if you do it the other way round the LMG is covering a big area ineffectively.

E) Spotting rules tend to bog the game down quick which is out of the remit of Ganesha Games. Once you start adding spotting rules you have to model and modify for EVERYTHING (anyone who plays Final Combat will know what I mean) FL isn't aimed at that niche. That is why I kept it as being able to go hidden which then means you have to be spotted or fired at with the speculative fire -3. Purely a mechanic for keeping the game moving at a Ganesha pace. Obviously players may want to add more detail in but with a single d6 based game it proved too difficult. Remember however to use the task system to make characters be able to sneak around keeping their hidden status ... we find it works well.

Just regarding the last bit about enjoying 2 games in a night ... basically that is what I wanted to achieve without making the rules too light weight as to be stupid. When the genre specific books come out there will be changes made to make it fit in better ... for instance in the ultra modern afghan supplement the ranges have been changed as has the way of dealing with hard cover (which is a weak point in the core rules from a historical but not 'pulpy' viewpoint). Similar tweaks are evident in the WWII set, making some weapons lethal for instance (the MG 42 tripod mount would be one) changes the lethality quite a lot ... but you wouldn't want it to be like it in a pulp game where one expects to be able to charge the MG nest

Rich

[Claus Paludan]

Yep - we (Mark was my opponent as you probably have guessed ) have been skulking in the AA forums for the better part of the last 2 years, but overall the gaming have been more or less on hold apart from the odd AA game - so good to be back with some fun gaming

A) LMG setup time
Both teams was Q3/C3 or C4. At the worst part of the game both the leader and NCO was kicking someone elses butt (I swear I had Dupont and Dupont running around trying to act as german soldiers.. plus a noob medic who definately didn't want to go anywhere near the enemy.. gahhh). But even with the Q3's they had a hard time setting up - in the last game none of them made it - and to top it one of the teams went shaken/prone towards the end.
Oh well - we might try with a 2 Action Setup time and see if it fits our style better - a few games will probably help there


B1) Overwatch
Fair enough - having the OOA and shaken counted as not being active characters LOS wise should help it I think

B2) Overwatch
Ok - so if my LMG team goes on overwatch it will not go away until I fire or choose to remove it?

B3) Overwatch
Sure makes sense - it just seemed they were at a very large disadvantage compared to a normal shot.

C1) Lethality - Example one
WOOT? You add the entire teams C together??? We (I) definately missed that.. in that case he would probably have been cut to slices... But that isn't very clear in the rules if thats the case (one for that FAQ )

And now you are confusing me.. first you add the C3 and C4 - and now you are talking about firing the LMG first and then the Kar98....? ( I would think he would be busy feeding belts to the gunner?? How many ways can I shoot at GI Joe if the two LMG teammembers gets 2 actions each?


C2) Lethality - Example two
To be honest I don't think he aimed, he got two actions and spent the first rising from prone - but still.. he could have kicked them in the behinds at that distance lol.. And we didn't add the weapon bonus to the targets.

D) Concentrated fire.
DOH - of course... it didn't say I couldn't fire with the LMG and add the rifles as extra modifiers - duly noted lol.

E) Spotting rules.
Fair enough - the rules have so much RPG over them that it just feels strange not to have to spot targets - nothing complicated and perhaps more a mix of reaction/spotting - some kind of battle awareness. Again - we might add a rule that models what we want/need.


I am looking forward to the Afghan supplement as well lol - as I am still waiting for the Helmand Supp for AA - seems like I can't get the supps WHEN I want them lol.. but since you mentioned elsewhere that it is ready how about getting it pdf'ed up for us to buy

And I can see the need for more specifics in "real/historical" games thinking of the kind of weaponry available and the scenarios people might want to play. Oh - I NEVER expect anyone wanting to charge MY MG nests... the other way around perhaps.. lol

Overall I like the mechanics very much, it has a good feel over it - and it sure is easy to add stuff you need in terms of tasks and what have you..

Nice chatting with you again mate

Claus

[richjones]

1/ Reading your reply about having most troops at Q3 and C3 or C4 - the norm for any non special force guy is C2 C3/C4 is extremely high - and would mean it would be harder to double or triple the combined scores with C3 and an average roll of 3 means he firer needs 12 with probably only a base of 5 or 6 so would only be OOA a target on a 6 - no wonder the SMG guy found it hard to OOA the close guy - try playing with C2 and using a better Q for 'better' troops - the game is based on a majority of characters being C2 (think it says this somewhere). With Q3 guys near a leader it shouldn't be hard - are you rolling for the actions and then doubling them - an LMG crew with Q2 or Q3 should easily roll 2 passes out of the 3 for a total of 6 actions ... if you find it annoying drop it down to 2 actions and see how it goes.

B2/ overwatch will remain until the end of the opponents go if you fire at all (you can fire on more than one target with auto fire weapons) or until you take it off or have to move through being fired at.

C1/ no we are confusing each other ... I meant you add the C4 for the firer and the C3 of the weapon ... BUT as expressed in the answer above your C values for the characters are too high ... thats why it is hard to double - only just picked that up with your question.
c2/ see above

Spotting was something Andrea wanted to keep out for all the reasons I said ... would be easy to knock something up as a task roll though.

Send me your email address in a PM mate

Rich

[Claus Paludan]

The forcelist for my germans was as follows. Only the vet LMG team (Kurt + Till - back from Stalingrad) had the high C stats.

Heinrich Voller : Q3/C2, Submachine Gun,Leader
Karl Lindemann : Q3/C3, Submachine Gun,NCO/Second In Command,Steady Under Fire
Kurt Merkel (MG Gunner) : Q3/C4, Belt Fed Light Machine Gun pre 1945
Till Riefenstahl(MG Assistant) : Q3/C3, Bolt Action Rifle
Konrad Landers(MG Gunner) : Q3/C2, Belt Fed Light Machine Gun pre 1945,Strong
Ernst Riedel(MG Assistant) : Q3/C2, Bolt Action Rifle
Albert Schneider : Q4/C3, Bolt Action Rifle,Green
Franz Lorenz : Q4/C2, Bolt Action Rifle,Green
Volker Goethe : Q3/C2, Bolt Action Rifle,CQB Specialist
Wolfgang Havel : Q4/C1, Bolt Action Rifle,Medic (combat)

But I can't see why their high C values should make it hard for me to gain the upper hand?

A1 - We did roll for actions and then double them - stil just had a hard time setting up..

C1 - ahh ok - but stil my question stand - can the assistant shoot as well as the lmg gunner provided they have actions enough?

C2 - it was Karl Lindemann who tried to kill the two at short distance - but again - his high C3 should make it easier for him to kill them?

Am a aware that the C3 and C4 are very high compared to the standard C2 - but I wanted to see what the different stats would do..


I will post spotting rules when we find something that works for us - could be others that just need that as well lol.


Claus
ps : email sent

[richjones]

Ok was just checking ... we have never had that much trouble setting up to be honest ... might have been quirky rolls.

I thought all the troops had high C values from your post ... for two high C troops 'duking it out' in a firefight it will be harder to double than two bog standard C2 as the standing C total will be higher making it harder to double.

The crew act as a 'crew' and can only shoot once unless they have combat fiend ... the loader would be, well loading. This is why some LMG (esp clip fed) do not have to have a crew etc. But then you suffer when rolling a 1 ...

I can post up the spotting rules we used to start with if I can find them

Rich

Check your mail

[Claus Paludan]

Originally I started out with a severe mix of Q and C levels - but luckily decided on the above - still required a bit looking up stats for the correct character... next rooster will be easier to grasp for me lol.. I think all Marks C's were 2 - so the two vets really should have had a field day.. but alas... they probably thought France was vacation area when they arrived..

And glad to hear I/we didn't do the crew shooting wrong.. would have been kinda embarrassing.

And I would love to see the spotting rules if you can find them.. no need to reinvent what the gods have already concieved..

Mail recieved...

[richjones]

Will have to hunt them out ... basically it was an opposed roll like shooting without the weapons modifier and negatives for range etc (figuring the target would be doing what they could not to be seen) and any win spotted the character. camo uniforms always counted as concealed over 3 long. It worked but slowed things down ... another version was just to treat it as a task increasing the Q for the figure being in open and the easy, hard task being the range and cover etc

[Claus Paludan]

Those are good ideas as well. I am not sure we want to go to the opposed rules here either - that sure bogs it down.. A single roll from the spotter should do it though..